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Post by JimRatliff on Mar 15, 2014 20:47:17 GMT -7
On our recent trip I took my Peak 84's as my "most everything" ski along with a wider soft snow ski. A couple of days last week it was above freezing in the day with lows in the teens, resulting in some "very firm" places the next morning. I encountered a severe vibration/bucking quite a bit, which surprised me. If I relaxed my ankles just a bit, the skis wsould drift/brush quite nicely, with more ankle pressure they would hold and carve nicely, but I was really surprised how frequently my turn shape/tipping input resulted in this in-between behavior. Clearly the ski was grabbing and releasing and grabbing again. etc. Comments or suggestions?
By the way, this hasn't changed my affection for the Peak 84's, since this was really hard snow and out of their comfort zone. I was actually surprised that I could carve turns in these frozen conditions at all, but I needed to apply the pressure. Other than this they were a great "all moutain" companion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 19:06:30 GMT -7
Just a thought.... Have you tried moving the bindings forward or back to find a balanced position? I have noticed this behavior also, and cured it by adjusting the bindings to gain more even pressure along the full edge of the ski. I recently demoed a couple of skis at Lake Louise, both of which were skittish on scraped off icy patches. Moved the bindings fwd a centimeter or two....problem solved.
The other thing that sometimes causes this for me on icy steeps, is a too-hurried turn for an attempt at speed control, esp. with longer radius skis (of which the Peak 84 is one). A longer, rounder, more measured turn, coming across and/or slightly up the fall line to control speed usually cures it. That, and sticking my chin over my skis and down the hill, as well as pressuring the inside ski more....basic technique stuff...
Finally, I have ask (sorry about this)...but are your edges sharp?
FWIW, I skied the Peak 84 in similar conditions a couple of years ago - icy refrozen spring snow - and thought their edge grip was exceptionally good. Absolutely no grabbiness or slipping at all.
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Post by JimRatliff on Mar 16, 2014 19:26:36 GMT -7
Both are good points. Fore aft balance was one of my thoughts, both in terms of binding position and my commitment to the front of the skis. I have the bindings 8mm forward, but in hindsight I should have tried moving them more forward. Edges are sharp, but only 1/2 degrees. My Progressors are 1/3. This wouldn't have happened with my Progressor's, but they are 1/3 base/edge and I they require less effort for a given level of tipping. I noted also was this was at the end of two weeks of pretty steady skiing - well more than I've ever skied steady.
I certainly don't see this as a limitation of the Peak 84's edging. It was a limitation of me to get enough pressure on the edges, or to distribute the pressure across all of the edge causing the tail to washboard.
Thanks. And how was your week. Waiting for trip report and ski reviews, and how the ladies liked all the newer skis.
PS. I'm seriously considering 0.7/2 for base and edge bevels for the Peak 84's rather than 1/3 (0.7 base and 2 degrees edge is what I have on my Ullr Chariots).
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Post by JimRatliff on Mar 16, 2014 19:33:14 GMT -7
ohhh, and just slowing down would also avoid the problem.
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Post by livingproof on Mar 17, 2014 7:21:40 GMT -7
Jim,
Refrozen snow can be very problematic to ski (now there's a no-brainer statement), and, I think we all struggle with the issues you raise. The snow can be very uneven, especially early when few have skied the runs, causing low edge angle skis to bounce around. Often, I just let my skis slide at low edge angles and not try to fight it. I think Svend's comment about rushing onto the new edge is insightful. Be soft at the start and try to develop edge angles as your skis approach the fall line. It's a lot more about the archer than the arrow on this snow. The more angles I can push myself into does improve hard snow skiing. Easier said than done.
From a ski perspective, I'm unsure how much more control you would have experienced on a more dedicated carver. My thinking is the improvement is incremental rather than way-better. If memory serves me, you do not have tuning gear,so, your edges can be a little off after several days on snow. If I know that I'll be skiing refrozen, I always do a quick edge touch up with a dedicated edge guide and diamond stone the night before. If I've skied hard snow for a couple of days, a quick freshening with a file is in order. 2 or 3 small tools are easy to take on the road and great investment for better skiing. I have a 3 degree edge guide for my carving skis, and, am considering adding a 2 degree for the soft snow Q98's. I skied my mid-80 skis at 3 degrees mostly for home conditions and never felt a downside in soft snow. Not sure if there is a real need for a 2 degree on the 98's.
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Post by JimRatliff on Mar 17, 2014 7:58:46 GMT -7
You're right about the tuning tools. At my level of mechanical ability, I feel I'm much more likely to make things worse than better. (That may be a bit self deprecating).
Dedicated carver? It is easier to get pressure to the edge on a narrower ski. Or, said differently, a given amount of effort results in more edge pressure with a narrower waist. So I think the Progressor's would have been incrementally better (but I agree, not way better).
Thanks for mentioning the 3 degree edge bevel on your mid-80's skis. That's what I had planned, sort of. Doing a .7 base and 2 degree side is similar, but I get to the edge slightly quicker. I have that on my other wide skis and haven't seen any negative side effects as far as being hooky or grabby. Of course, it's likely the difference is in my mind, since I doubt I could feel the difference in a blind test.
By the way, Elk is forecast to get 2-4"of snow so Lynn and I will probably be there. We weren't ready for our season to end last week.
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Post by HighAngles on Mar 18, 2014 5:55:47 GMT -7
I think most of the info in the replies so far is fairly on target. This is almost always due to a technique problem on the part of the skier. Mount position can impact this, but only so far as how it affects your fore/aft balance ability on the skis. The chattering is actually caused more by your lateral balancing ability in that if you want to have smooth edge engagement you must have early, but progressive edging skills. This requires strong counterbalancing skills to get upside down in your early edge engagement, but the real key is to allow the pressure to develop in the turn naturally without forcing (or searching for pressure) by pushing on your skis. You should be "light" at transition (managed through flexion/retraction) and try to stay light as possible with continued tipping before you hit the fall line.
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Post by JimRatliff on Mar 18, 2014 9:21:47 GMT -7
Thanks to all. The technique suggestions and thoughts are appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 9:31:32 GMT -7
Jim, further to my reply above, this can also happen if the ski stiffness is not appropriate for the skier weight and power. Too soft, esp. torsionally, and the ski will twist and let go on a steep icy slope. Too stiff longitudinally, and the ski will not bend sufficiently to engage the full edge, and you will be riding the tips and tails; or it will catch and release as the ski flexes and engages/disengages.
The former happened to me recently when I demoed a much-praised all-mtn. ski in similar conditions to yours. I found the skis skittish and jittery, and would not hold a clean turn on even moderate groomers. Scratched my head for a time trying to figure it out -- good tune, high perf. skis, binding pos'n perfect, great snow....what's up? I should be nailing it on these. Only answer was that the skis weren't stiff enough.
Something more to think about.... Hope this helps.
Edit/addendum: an easy way to check if the skis are too stiff for you is to check edge sharpness after a few days of skiing hard snow (assuming they were tuned and sharpened at the start). If the edges at tip and tail are dulled and/or burred, but the midsection underfoot is still relatively sharp, then that's a simple telltale that you are not bending the skis enough. I have noticed this on a friend's skis, and Gary has as well on someone else's -- both were lightweight skiers on too-stiff boards. BTW, this is not meant as a negative reflection on anyone's technique and their ability to power and bend a ski; it is simply meant as a statement of matching the skier to an appropriate ski, so that they can get the best performance out of it.
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