I've no experience with softer boot shells, but, with respect to lateral stiffness, my guess is that a liner cannot stiffen a soft boot significantly. It's common to read that the choice should be to get a stiffer boot, which can be softened, whereas, a soft boot can't be made stiffer.
I agree LP. I'm not sure if a liner can really be prescribed as a cure if there is already a problem with lateral stiffness. A stiff liner will certainly improve the situation, but I'm not sure if that improvement would be sufficiently significant. Kind of an expensive proposition to test, but it would be interesting to hear anecdotal evidence.
This question might have an obvious answer, but why replace the liner in a new pair of B2's? What makes the Intuition better than the stock liner?
I have a pair of B2s also (with the Performance Pro liner). I think it's a nice liner - one of the better OEM liners available, but it's no ZipFit. The secret to the ZipFit is the OMfit material. No other liner has this and it not only guarantees you of being able to achieve a great fit, but will not compress (pack out) at all for the life of the liner. I absolutely hate having a liner that continues to change the more I ski it. Once I have things dialed in I want them to stay there!
Only knock on the ZipFit is that it's incredibly thin in the forefoot area. If I could influence Sven a bit on the design I would suggest that he go with a thicker layer of neoprene in the forefoot. The ZipFit is just so much thinner than just about every other liner in that area.
Guys, just to clarify, the Inferno boots are by no means soft, at least in the forward plane. At 110 flex (and keeping in mind that flex indices are all relative and so variable), they have about the same forward stiffness as were the Lange Comp Pro which were 120 flex. I have added one of the beefier Booster straps (triple-ply model), which has bumped that up even further. So I am totally OK with their forward stiffness. The only thing I am lacking is that darn edge grip that was so awesome in the Langes.
So, H-A, I wouldn't call it a "problem" with lateral stiffness, it's just now that I've tasted the good stuff, I kinda miss it now that it's gone.
Out of pure curiosity, I have tried on several new boots over the past year (I'm in no rush to buy) and have found only one model that I would consider worthy of switching to -- the Head Raptor 130RS; a near-perfect fit right out of the box, and just slightly stiffer than my Infernos. I have tried the new shell models of the Langes (RS/RX, 97mm last) and the fit just forward of the heel is just not on for me - way too tight - otherwise fit is OK. The Tecnica Inferno shell, however, is just an excellent match for my feet -- instep, heel, calf and shin hold are just like a glove. So I would consider simply upgrading to a stiffer model in that line - sp. the 130 Inferno, 98mm, which has a steel chassis for increased edge grip (at least that's what Tecnica is claiming).
Your advice on the effect of a new liner on overall lateral stiffness is well-taken. Probably not the way to go, and dollar-for-dollar not worth the investment, trying to beef up a middle-of-the-road shell. Seems better to get a more substantial high performing shell first, and go from there. In the long term, a more sensible way to go.
Thanks for the insight.
Last Edit: Nov 19, 2013 16:15:57 GMT -7 by Deleted
Were you at Killington by any chance this past weekend? I glimpsed a skier with your outfit, body shape, and stance a couple times and he ripped. Nice skiing if that was you!
Nope. Unfortunately, my season won't start until at least mid December this year, pending clearance from the doc after getting my eyes lasered. I'm glad to see somebody's out there representing my colors, though!
Thanks for the advice on the liners, guys. The liners in my 130RD's were fine for maybe 100 days or so before the packing out started to get annoying. I guess I'll talk to Chris or whomever at the shop and see what they suggest. It'd be cool to have a liner that won't pack out!
Post by HighAngles on Nov 21, 2013 11:59:39 GMT -7
I tested out adding a layer of neoprene on the underside of the Pro Tongue liner's tongue last night. It feels like it's going to get me to my happy place. Just feeling around on the underside of where the tongue attaches makes me really wonder what Intuition was thinking. I believe that the old version that had the removable tongue was probably a better design (I think that's what Diana has). The attachment is just really "rough" and is creating hot spots on the top of my foot.
I'm going to use some double-side tape and temporarily attach the neoprene for some test runs this weekend. If it all works out I'll glue the pieces in.
First day on the new Zipfits. Not sure which aspect pushed me off of the mountain. My quads, my screaming feet or the increased number of crazy's as the day progressed. Probably like a multiple choice quiz question: choice E. All of the above.
Initial impression. Improved heal hold and support which was the primary goal. Comfort was not too bad for a first day on a new liner. Not too many tears shed secondary to pain. Not very happy with increased volume over the instep compared to my Nordica OEM liners. This led to increased difficulty putting on and taking off the boots/shells. Also caused decreased overlap of the shell in that area leading to snow infiltration. I have never had significant snow infiltration in that area before except on powder days (believe me, no powder today ). I am undecided on the neoprene toe area. I have always had clammy feet in neoprene constructed shoes, booties, boots in past. Not too bad today but was not out that long.
In regards to stiffness of boot. No change. Suspect if a shell feels stiffer with a different liner, the liner is just doing a better job of supporting the foot, ankle and lower leg with better transfer of movement to the shell. Doubt that the liner stiffens the shell, but rather allows the shell to reach its potential stiffness by the improved support and improved transfer of movement energy of the foot to the shell.
Post by JimRatliff on Nov 23, 2013 11:12:24 GMT -7
Meput: I assume that you did have your boots heat molded? I will say that for my Zipfits I have adopted putting my foot in the liner first and then putting both into the boot, stopping half way down to pull up on the liner and push down with the heel to make sure it is seated well. At the end of the day I can leave the liner in the boot and get my foot out. Diana recommended an occasional spray of slicone to facilitate the slide.
Last Edit: Nov 23, 2013 11:17:05 GMT -7 by JimRatliff
Since I got the stiffer Dobie 150 with lace liner, I have always put on the liner first and taken the liner off last. With the liner on, I then coerce the foot and liner into the shell. The HotGear bag is critical for this stage since it is not a pretty process when the shell is not heated. Heating the shell makes it easier to spread the instep overlap. Extracting the foot and liner just requires brute force. To increase leverage for the extraction, I make a loop behind the boot with the booster strap, put my other foot into the loop, extend the leg in the toe loop booster strap while removing the foot and liner from the boot shell.
I once tried to extract the foot with the liner to stay in the shell. I undid the laces as best that I could. The shell and liner severely bit the instep area of my foot. I have only let that dog bite me once.
Unfortunately the zipfit liner requires more spread of the shell due to the greater volume over the instep. Hopefully as the Zipfit breaks in it will become more pliable making the boot on and boot off process a little easier.
Post by HighAngles on Nov 24, 2013 16:49:27 GMT -7
So did I mention that the Pro Tongue liner is stiff?
I wouldn't describe this new liner as exactly comfy either. Though the layer of neoprene I added did the trick for the top of my foot. That allowed me to focus on the performance with the comfort side mostly taken care of. I find the Pro Tongue to be a crazy responsive liner. There is very little give to the foam once it's at mountain temps - feels kind of like a concrete block once it gets cold! It's a good thing that it's a custom molded liner because I doubt you would have much luck breaking it in without baking it first. I only have about 8 hours or so on the liner now so it will probably settle in a bit more.
I don't want to scare off anyone seriously considering this liner, but hopefully you'll have a better understanding of what you're getting yourself into if you do go this route.
I skied in my older shells and ZipFits today and now I'm seriously considering pickup up another ZipFit for the Overkill shell. Of course, that's a much more expensive proposition; especially after investing in the Pro Tongue.
livingproof: Philly is an ice rink this morning, freezing rain over very cold streets. Weather is putting a dent into my ski season.
Jan 5, 2014 9:39:28 GMT -7
Deleted: LP - we had a three-day ice storm here just before Christmas, so I know well what you're dealing with. Not fun. Hope there's no damage in Philly. Take care.
Jan 5, 2014 20:23:02 GMT -7
livingproof: Philly weather warm fog last night, 8 inches of new snow = history! 8 degrees F tomorrow morning. Should be some great local boilerplate!
Jan 6, 2014 7:42:34 GMT -7
meput: - 22° F the other morning. +54° today. Forcast 0° tonight. Temperature rollercoaster at my home. The 'loaf got RAIN with the warm up. Looking forward to skiing on shaved ice
Jan 6, 2014 16:28:43 GMT -7
Deleted: Same story here...25 cm snow last night, some more freezing rain, and now there's 80 km/hr winds and -25 C temps. Wind chill is pushing -40 C. Supposed to continue all day tomorrow too. Whacky weather.
Jan 6, 2014 20:52:30 GMT -7
ToddW: -20° F on the drive up to VT on Friday. Freezing rain and heavy fog Sunday night made for an 8 hour return trip. Record low at home this morning. 40s and rain by Friday. What's up with the weather?
Jan 7, 2014 18:04:52 GMT -7
Deleted: Polar vortex is back. -26 C this morning. Will need a block heater in the car if this keeps up. Poor thing barely cranked this morning.
Jan 22, 2014 7:30:05 GMT -7
JimRatliff: Polar Vortex??? Is that the new Head all-mountain carving ski I've been hearing so much about?
Jan 22, 2014 9:04:03 GMT -7
JimRatliff: That's pretty chilly. 7F (-13C) in Central Park. Glad you didn't send the real cold air down.
Jan 22, 2014 9:04:58 GMT -7
JimRatliff: OK, but I still think "Polar Vortex" and "Polar Express" could be the start of a great family of ski names.
Jan 22, 2014 10:45:22 GMT -7
Deleted: I like it! Blizzard should take those on. Fits with their name. Easier to say than "Viva Ultrasonic Full Suspension IQ", or some such ridiculousness. Who can remember all that?
Jan 22, 2014 20:29:13 GMT -7
livingproof: Another round of Philly area snow....we're ground zero this season. Please start sending any future storms north.
Mar 2, 2014 8:15:55 GMT -7
Deleted: Neverending winter here in Ontario. More snow last night. Cold temps coming this week. Word on the street is that some local ski hills may be open until May. Remarkable and unprecedented.
Mar 22, 2014 9:03:22 GMT -7
superbman: we were supposed to make it to next weekend, but they put out that we're closing tomorrow. Bummer.
Mar 28, 2014 9:06:50 GMT -7
JimRatliff: I think most local places here are closing as well. Yesterday was last at Elk.
Mar 30, 2014 4:17:15 GMT -7
livingproof: My Blue Mtn home is planning to open next weekend (closed midweek). Spring temps are finally here, not sure if I'll make a final trip.
Mar 30, 2014 6:00:04 GMT -7
ToddW: Surefire way to scare away family skiers, from the Killington conditions page: "Expect huge bumps on Superstar for the Killington Triathlon."
May 2, 2014 13:22:58 GMT -7
JimRatliff: I just wanted to wish all a Happy Holidays. Amazing how quickly Christmas follows Thanksgiving.
Dec 13, 2014 14:53:23 GMT -7
superbman: I was looking at the reviews on real skiers for the Kastle FX 85 and FX 85HP…both interested me greatly, how similar are these to the FX 84 (if you have skied both..or is the 85 the 84??)
Sept 13, 2015 14:52:00 GMT -7