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Post by ToddW on Nov 8, 2013 20:45:57 GMT -7
Over the past couple years, injected foam liners have become less attractive as the foam has become softer and crumblier due to European Union environmental regulations. This week, I faced the choice of injecting new Head (made by Nordica) race foam liners or trying Intuition's recent stiff liner addition, the Pro Tongue Liner. I chose the Intuitions. Fitting the liner was easy compared to getting injected -- just a few minutes of moderate pressure. In the shop: the pro tongue is not as stiff as the injected foam of yore. And the tongue is wimpy in comparison to my Nordica race foam liners, even after 150+ days use. In this year's model, the tongue position is no longer adjustable which also means that there's no option to substitute an injected tongue. The liner cuff has a more upright build with less native forward lean than most liners. The laces start farther up the boot than in most injected liners, so the fit over the forefoot is more relaxed. The covering material makes it easier to slide the intuitions in and out of a stiffer (cold) boot than many liners. On the snow: I just finished my first 3 days on snow for the season. Day 1 was in aging Nordica race foam liners and Raptor 130 RD shells. Days 2 and 3 were in Intuition Pro Tongue liners and Raptor B2 shells. I experienced minor discomfort from the tongue trying to bend in the wrong spot for my foot, but this diminished over the two days and hopefully will go away. Still, an adjustable tongue would be nice. The Intuitions faithfully transferred edging movements from my feet to the shells, almost as well as the injected foam did when it was new. It's possible that the new shells may have compensated for some loss in liner performance; either way the final combination still works better than I had expected. The feeling around the ankle and cuff is different, so it took me some hours to recalibrate my sense of how much I was really edging (this is one reason some instructors focus so heavily on using external cues for feedback ) The weak link on snow is the tongue which is too flexible to distribute load uniformly across the shin when you go "hips forward." The strong points are the relative warmth and ease of fitting. I set the Intuitions up with my Hotronics elements, but having skied them I suspect boot gloves may be all that I'll need. Here's a link to Intuition's product page for this liner. Here's hoping for little to no further packing out! If the liners hold their current snugness, I'll be a happy skier. (At least until they discover a new compound for injected liners.)
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Post by lynn on Nov 9, 2013 9:21:52 GMT -7
What??? No more toxic chemicals surrounding one's foot with such loving pressure??? Not sure whether to be upset or not. Let us know how they progress as the season goes. The eternal search for comfort and performance on the skiing foot continues.........
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Post by ToddW on Nov 9, 2013 10:34:45 GMT -7
Lynn,
The toxic chemicals never embraced my feet whilst skiing ... that's what the regulators didn't like. Instead, they entered the atmosphere during injection and drifted around doing no good. They were more prone to kill the ozone layer than human lungs.
BTW, your foam liner ecstasy story is in danger of being lost with the forum reboot. If you or Jim don't post, I'll put Gary or another gifted tall tale spinner up to the task. (Apparently the smiley menu is only available in desktop mode, not mobile. So imagine an appropriately expressive smiley and double it.)
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Post by Gandalf on Nov 9, 2013 10:57:08 GMT -7
Todd:
Hmmm, good point about the boot-fitting story. Unfortunately, Lynn may be OK with having that slide off into oblivion.
If you have an extra $2.99 you are welcome to be our official evaluator of the "Proboards App for Mobile Devices".
By the way, I posted it elsewhere, but pass along any places in Denver or Dillon that may rent MYA #8's. I checked with the skunk works and they don't carry that model, but the assistant skunk (that's a somewhat distasteful title, I guess) is going to check with Chris and see what he knows of other shops.
Jim
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Post by meput on Nov 10, 2013 7:02:48 GMT -7
Todd,
Glad to hear that you have been able to ski already.
What are your initial thoughts of the Raptor B2 shells? Also, why the B2's instead of a pair of Dodge boots now that HH has dropped the price to $750?
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Post by ToddW on Nov 10, 2013 10:28:24 GMT -7
I got my previous raptors the same day JBotti got his Dodge boots. I tried on the Dodges then, but the pain from the tongue jamming into my foot was excruciating. My calves are strong and extend farther down than most men's so I am not a candidate for Dodge boots. In fact, even with the B2 we cut off the lower rear red descender tabs at the bottom rear of the intuitions to make a bit more room for the lower soleus and did some other back of liner sculpting.
I ordered the B2 last January after discussing it with Diana. My original thought was to ski the 130 RD in cold weather and the 150 flex B2 when it was above 20*. Diana convinced me to simply migrate to the B2.
Here are some lessons learned in the meantime about how to stiffen 130 RD/B3 in warmer weather.
1) use a WC booster strap (3 layers plus the WC stitching) to help the shell upper maintain its cylinder.
2) insert all the rear bolts. They actually do stiffen the flex in warmer spring skiing weather. The common view that they have no effect is based on cold weather experience and the assumption that the plastic is stiff.
The B2 is a step up. The heelbox fits tighter which leads to more direct edging. It also reduces lateral alignment compensation needed. I'm skiing them flat for now. They have a bit more ramp angle which happens to be good for me.
The toe box on both b2 and b3 grew wider last season, so it took much less work to make some length for my little toes than with the older raptors.
They have great snow feel and allow precise control of tipping. Because the cuff is laterally stiffer, someone accustomed to a 130 raptor will sense he is edging much more than he actually is. I'm about halfway through recalibrating for this.
They are not as stiff as the old pre-B2, pre-milk white, notorious red raptor 150. I've taken them off at 20* and put them back on at 30* without too much effort (and no silicone or Teflon spray)
I'm skiing them with all three bolts in, supposedly a 160 flex. The jury is still out on spine flex vs classic raptor bail buckles. I both do and don't like spineflex. Hopefully they will grow on me.
I'm headed out soon to try another fore-aft tweak. I skied with it on Thursday simulated with under binding shims but didn't have professional eyes and video to confirm. [We've been trying several approaches to fore-aft alignment for the past several years. this is the single biggest factor impeding my skiing.] Once we get that dialed in, I'll be all out of excuses. Superb boots, good skis. All remaining errors will be pilot error.
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Post by ToddW on Nov 10, 2013 13:58:56 GMT -7
Jim 2,
Besides the fit, the B2's were special ordered for me last Spring since they were out of last year's stock and I wanted to give them the business. Mine were the only pair they ordered for this season.
They have plenty of pro tongue liners on the other hand.
Jim 1,
HighAngles probably has a good idea where y'all can rent Mya 8 in Summit County.
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Post by meput on Nov 10, 2013 15:06:14 GMT -7
Todd,
Glad that the B2's are initially working out. Your comments re: the Dodge boots are interesting. I have asked Chris to put a pair aside for me. Where you had difficulty with the cuff height and diameter, hopefully I will not have similar problems due to my height/lower leg length.
Currently looking to put some Zip-fits in my Dobie 150's (locally). Lost all heel hold with the original Nordica liners at ~120 days. Had to finish last season with the liners from my older Dobie's that did a better job of securing my heels. Unfortunately they are thicker in the forefoot area and really were uncomfortable up front. Not looking to get my feet back into ski boot mode with either of the Nordica liners. The Zip-fits are on order. Need to get them in and massaged before Nov 23 - projected first day of skiing for me here in Maine.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 10, 2013 20:09:08 GMT -7
Meput: You probably already know this, but one of the best things about the Zipfits is that they continue to mold themselves to your feet as you ski them (unlike foam injection, where your feet must mold to the liner). I've developed the habit of really making sure my heel is seated just before sliding the liner the rest of the way into the boot. I find the heel retention really good, and overall love my zipfits.
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Post by ToddW on Nov 11, 2013 6:38:23 GMT -7
meput, If the Dodge's fit, go for them. At least until this sale, HSS let people demo the Dodge boot (but no other boots.) See if you can ski it for a day before committing. Some people wind up squatting in the back seat in that boot, but many ski beautifully. Having had my foot in one, I can tell you that they are laterally stiff ... stiffer than a 150 flex boot. And they're less than half the weight. Don't worry about that though because we'll tie on some bricks to keep the playing field level at the spring gathering It's been 4 years since I skied on a zipfit. If you have sensitive or large 5th met heads, the neoprene forefoot can lead to a hotspot there if you ski on all four edges. Scissors and duct tape can help that. Otherwise, zipfit is a good option and definitely a step up from the stock liners. As Jim 1 mentioned, seat your heel well when booting up so they mold into the proper form for the day. Lynn and Jim held a molding party for my zipfits during a camp many years ago. Good wine, pears with Gruyère cheese, assorted hors d'oeuvres, and some excellent hot chocolate to take off the chill of a day's skiing plus the use of their oven and bath tub to heat the liners and shells. Almost makes me want to buy another pair. How will you celebrate the entry of your new zipfits into your circle of skiing friends? Speaking of getting on snow, you've got a big trip coming up next month. Don't forget to write a trip report! Will you be posting before and after video?
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