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Post by JimRatliff on May 12, 2014 11:53:26 GMT -7
Lynn and I signed up for the "Ride to Montauk" and opted for the 70 mile version (as opposed to the 30, 100 mile, or the 150 mile versions). This is basically a supported ride from New York City to Montauk Lighthouse out at the end of Long Island. Lynn's neighbor and friend runs the ride and has had as many as 5000 people participate. Unfortunately, the wealthy residents of South Hampton are tired of seeing all of these bicyclists riding through their fine city on the "public" roads and have forced him to move the ride earlier to May 31and limited the number of riders to 1500 this year. Anyway, the impressive part of this ride is the job he does of transporting bicycles from New York to whatever start point you choose while the rider takes the LIRR (Long Island Railroad) to get to the selected start point, and then he reverses the logisitcs to get people (and bikes) back to the city from Montauk. And, in case you are interested, the LIRR added rules expressly forbidding bringing bikes aboard the railroad on the day of the "Ride to Montauk". A long winded way of saying that we have a long ride coming up well before we have had the bike days to actually prepare for it. On the other hand, 70 miles on level ground can't be too intimidating, CAN IT?? As part of getting ready it was time to replace the sealant on my road bike tires. I had run over a tree stump embedded in asphalt last summer and was amazed that the sealant sealed it instantly. Part of the stump is still in the tire, and I have been very hesitant to unmount the tire (it holds air wonderfully, don't mess with somethin' that ain't broke?). Since I wanted to have a spare tubeless tire before opening it up, I began to see what was new. I have been quite happy with my Maxxis Padrone, but I settled on the Hutchinson's Sector 28. The description from the manufacturer and from test bike reviewers is that the wider tire at lower pressure is actually faster than a narrower tire at higher pressures (sound familiar to any mountain bikers?). Basically, the energy consumed by the flexing tire as its lower pressure allows it to conform to road imperfections is considerable less than the energy consumed by a high pressure tire. Because the high pressure tire doesn't flex, it requires the energy to lift the whole bike up over these imperceptible imperfections. And, amazingly, there are recent studies that show that the aerodynamics favor the wider tire as well. Obviously I'm not a racer, but there were several riders using the Sector 28 on the Paris-Roubaix race last year. So I checked my bike, looked like plenty of clearance on brakes and frame both front and rear, and I went for it (I may just run them on the back this year). Manufacturers recommended tire pressure for a 175 pound rider is 85 psi. My measured circumference for past and current tire. Maxxis Padrone 700x23C: 2086 mm Hutchinson Sector 28 700x28C: 2127 mm In general it seems that tubeless tires measure conservatively, but that is a fairly small difference. In the first picture, the Sector 28 is in the back. Difference in height is not noticeable. Second picture, Sector 28 is on the right. Attachments:
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Post by JimRatliff on May 12, 2014 12:02:59 GMT -7
Seating the bead on tubeless tires. As some of you know, this is difficult to do with Mountain Bike tires unless you have a high volume of air. It is even more difficult with road bike tubeless because of the greater operational tire pressures require even tighter clearances, and the tires aren't very wide in the first place. The Sector 28 was much easier to mount than earlier tires. I was able to get the tire on the wheel with no tire tools pretty easily. The real gem of information I stumbled across on the web is this!!!!. K-Y Liquid works much better than soap and water in lubricating the bead and the rim to allow the bead to slide and seat in the proper location on the rim. Based on that recommendation, I bought a bottle and it really works well. I now have a bottle of "tire lubricant" that has the original label completely covered by black duct tape. I don't plan on telling anyone else what is really inside the bottle. (Yeah, I know how this all sounds, but it really worked well). The web site I found this on says that it is completely safe for aluminum and carbon wheels as well as the tires. And it washes off quite easily. What a strange spring. It's not hard to ride on 40 and 50 temp days in the fall, but it's been really hard to get on the bikes on the many chilly days this spring.
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Post by JimRatliff on May 12, 2014 12:14:05 GMT -7
OOPS!! I forgot to include this in the original post.
The Sector 28 is like the many mountain bike tires that are "tubeless ready". It is required that sealant be used. On the plus side, it is 30 grams lighter than the Hutchinson Fusion 3 700Cx23 tire that is true tubeless. For those, like me, that see imperviousness to flats that the sealant provides as the real benefit of going tubeless, then this is just 30 saved grams. So pour an extra ounce of water in the bottle.
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Post by livingproof on May 13, 2014 6:25:24 GMT -7
Lynn and I signed up for the "Ride to Montauk" and opted for the 70 mile version (as opposed to the 30, 100 mile, or the 150 mile versions). This is basically a supported ride from New York City to Montauk Lighthouse out at the end of Long Island. Lynn's neighbor and friend runs the ride and has had as many as 5000 people participate. Unfortunately, the wealthy residents of South Hampton are tired of seeing all of these bicyclists riding through their fine city on the "public" roads and have forced him to move the ride earlier to May 31and limited the number of riders to 1500 this year. Anyway, the impressive part of this ride is the job he does of transporting bicycles from New York to whatever start point you choose while the rider takes the LIRR (Long Island Railroad) to get to the selected start point, and then he reverses the logisitcs to get people (and bikes) back to the city from Montauk. And, in case you are interested, the LIRR added rules expressly forbidding bringing bikes aboard the railroad on the day of the "Ride to Montauk". A long winded way of saying that we have a long ride coming up well before we have had the bike days to actually prepare for it. On the other hand, 70 miles on level ground can't be too intimidating, CAN IT??Jim, Sounds like a very nice ride, what is the starting point for your 70 mile adventure? All you need to do for training is do a couple of warm ups on the route that Todd described, in another thread, and ride from the GW Bridge to top of Bear Mountain and back. Mountauk would be a piece of cake after that. In younger days, my bike club had a metric century (62 miles) each spring, and, that was do-able at moderate pace, without a lot of riding. If you get the prevailing southerly or west winds that would be a great help. I would ride as frequently as possible between now and the event date just focusing on getting some miles and letting your body become adjusted to the various biking positions. My butt, wrists, hands and neck seem to be in a state of rebellion from my initial miles this season. Pray the wind is blowing in your face. Enjoy, and, give us a report. With respect to your tire adventures, you are on the bleeding edge of technology, so, I listen rather than comment. It does seem strange to ride on 29mm wide rode tires, can't have much clearance getting them past road brake pads. Do you put them on flat and then pump up when the tire is on the bike?
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Post by JimRatliff on May 13, 2014 8:01:32 GMT -7
We actually picked Glen's new option (which I suggested) which is a loop that starts and ends in Montauk and has more scenery in the route, and we are staying out there for the weekend. Tire width wasn't a problem on my bike at all. They slide in and out fully inflated with no problem. Mine is a newer frame however, at a time when wheels have also been getting wider, and my Dura-Ace tubeless wheels are 21-23 mm wide (I don't remember exact); probably would not fit on Lynn's older bike frame. 23 vs 28 is only 2.5 mm on each side, a pretty small difference? We'll probably do PART of Todd's suggestion - across the GW bridge and up 9W to the Tappanzee bridge. Continuing up to Bear Mountain is for the more fit/younger. And yes, getting the body acclimated to sitting on the bike each year takes a few rides.
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Post by JimRatliff on May 17, 2014 19:48:21 GMT -7
So after a mere 50 miles on my new tire (on the rear only) I am really pleased. With 80 pounds of pressure the tire feels as if it rolls better (a purely subjective opinion), and it clearly rides smoother. It is quite surprising how clearly I can feel how much smoother the rear of the bike is compared to the front. Satisfying enough that I plan to go ahead and mount the front one too, which I wasn't sure about initially.
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Post by JimRatliff on Jun 29, 2014 20:29:46 GMT -7
I don't think this really affects anyone here, but I have a great tip to offer. Getting tubeless mountain bike (and road bike tires) to seat the bead initially can be a real challenge. I had been using 16 gram CO2 cartridges, and with enough lubricant to help the bead slide into place I probably had a 50/50 chance of success. The larger the tire, the lower the success rate. I recently found that 45 gram CO2 cartridges are also available, and they really work. I had been really frustrated replacing Lynn's rear tire, especially since the old Kenda Karma (non tubeless) in a 2.0 width had been so bullet proof. We could go away for a month and it would still have usable pressure in it. The "tubeless ready" 2.2 inch replacement was driving me crazy. It would almost inflate, but not quite. I was close to surrender and even considered taking it to the bike shop. One shot from the bigger 45 gram cartridge and it seated like a champ.
Just in case anyone else decides to play with tubeless.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 10:15:20 GMT -7
Hey Jim, this is a great thread. Thanks for all the useful info. I am finally going to convert my mtn. bike to tubeless...well, at least the front wheel for now. The rear tire is an older Kenda, non-sealant compatible, but once it wears out I will convert it also, which should be within a couple of months. As for the front tire, I just bought one of the new designs from Bontrager that are getting all the rave reviews -- the XR-3 Team Issue, 29" x 2.3". This is an excellent tire, and works great on our trails. But it is begging to be run tubeless, as it's a bit squirmy at the pressures required to run tubes without pinch flatting. The lowest I am comfortable going with tubes is 30 psi (front), but it really needs to go down to 25 psi for better stability and more predictable steering.
So, now a question for you: what sealant are you using in your mtn. tires? Being a set-it-and-forget-it kind of guy, I am NOT interested in Stans or the like. I want to put this tire on and not touch it for at least a year, or longer if I like it and it wears well. I recall that you were experimenting with Hutchinson Protect-Air. Have you had good luck with that? Still using it? Seems to me, from reading the reviews, that it's one of the longest lasting sealants available, at up to two years before needing renewal. Others need rather frequent topping up, although the new recipe for Caffelatex and Bontrager TLR seem better at 12 month durability. I'm curious to know your experience with this.
BTW, if you don't want to fuss with CO2 cartridges for inflation, consider getting a large compressed air tank. Fill when needed at a tire shop or service station; one fill should last you many bike tires. A cheap stand-in for a compressor. I think B-W suggested this on the old forum. Great idea, actually.
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Post by JimRatliff on Jul 1, 2014 20:00:21 GMT -7
Svend:
I am now using Hutchinson's Protect-Air exclusively. Like you said, it seems long lived, and it is referenced by name by Shimano as acceptable for use with their carbon/aluminum wheels. I used Stan's for the first 2 tires, but the next 5 have used Hutchinson. If I remember correctly, the Stan's didn't make it the entire summer.
When I changed sealant this spring, the Protect Air had an even layer of latex on the inside of the tire even tho the carrier liquid had evaporated. Next summer I will stretch the change interval and just add 30 ml to the tires (less for road bike). The tire with Stan's didn't have that even coverage, and had a wad of dried stuff. I'm convinced that either would seal a puncture when fresh, but that the rubbery "liner" created by the Hutchinson's would still seal some even after it evaporated.
Another feature of Protect Air is that you can inject it directly from the bottle through the valve stem, and a stem with a removable valve core makes it even easier. You just stick the bottle over the valve and squeeze gently. The bottle design mostly seals against the valve stem with just a bit of leakage. However, FWIW, I haven't had any positive experiences with the Hutchinson "FastAir" in the pressurized can.
The amounts I use: 700x23C = 30ml 700x28C = 45 ml 26x2.0 = 60ml 26x2.2 = 60-75 ml. You'll need to see what's suggested for 29" tires. After I first seat the bead, I air it up and check the tire in a tub of water to see where and how much it leaks. With non-tubeless designs, you get more leakage around the bead and will probably need more sealant. I have one Conti X-Trail Super Sport that is REALLY light and is really porous. The bead sealed well, but it still took more sealant to seal the tire itself.
I have a little compressor with tank, but have had trouble finding a usable Schraeder to Presta adaptor and holding everyting in place with the tire on the rim. After I sort of work the tire into place on the rim. I lay the wheel on top of a bucket to shoot the air in. The CO2 cartridge just works for me.
By the way, I initially used soap and water to help the bead slide into place on the rim. I saw a thread somewhere that recommended KY Liquid, so I bought some and tried it. It works great, and stays on the rim much longer that soapy water.
I think B-W said he was working in a bike shop so always had "volume air", and did recommend an air tank or compressor.
..Jim
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 11:45:23 GMT -7
Again, some great tips here. Thanks Jim. Should make the job very simple and quick to do, no more so than fiddling with a tube. I will probably buy a compressor soon anyway, as I have some projects around the house that would benefit from such a machine, but it seems likely that a floor pump should be fine for this job.
The Bontrager tire is a tubeless-ready model, the rims are Bontrager, and dedicated Bontrager rim strips are readily available, so the seal should be excellent. Some reviewers mentioned that this tire/rim combo holds air without any sealant at all - pretty impressive given that neither are UST.
Hutchinson sealant certainly seems to be the way to go. That it lasts so long has me sold. As for sealant volume, it will likely be around 100 ml or so, as it's a pretty beefy tire at 2.3".
You might consider a Bontrager tire for your bikes at some point. They have been getting ace reviews, but still seem under-appreciated. Their models prior to 2012 were the converse -- universally panned and loathed. I can attest to that, as the stock tire on my Fisher was a 2009 Bontrager Jones, and it really was quite awful. But this new model that I have is completely different - excellent quality and performance, on par with the best out there. Quite the turn-around for them.
Thanks again, and I'll let you know how it works out.
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