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Post by ToddW on Apr 10, 2014 11:31:16 GMT -7
I haven't run the tally for the year yet. Last season was 69 full days plus a handful of partial days.
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Post by livingproof on Apr 11, 2014 5:16:17 GMT -7
I haven't run the tally for the year yet. Last season was 69 full days plus a handful of partial days. Damn, if partial days don't count, why count at all. All my aging body knows is, that after 4 hours of lapping my home mountain, I'm ready to go home...but, you, my friend, are much younger. Plus, the PMTS crowd dogma is after 2 hours, your technique is toast!
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Post by HeluvaSkier on Apr 11, 2014 21:53:28 GMT -7
Plus, the PMTS crowd dogma is after 2 hours, your technique is toast! Hopefully you aren't questioning that...
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Post by ToddW on Apr 13, 2014 14:23:04 GMT -7
LivingProof,
I agree with jbotti et al. that skiing performance and mental focus diminish all too quickly. More often than not, my Sunday evening drive home is preceeded by or interrupted by a 1-2 hour nap. I've toyed with staying the night and leaving at 3 or 4 in the morning straight to work, but that often leads to near collisions with deer gathered in one or -both- lanes of the Taconic State Parkway (and occasionally inattentive drivers who pull onto the highway without looking at that hour.)
I've found that drinking milk about an hour before my last run helps me recharge quicker. On those days when deep, cold fatigue does set in, it happens roughly 90-120 minutes after last turns and I surrender asap to my body's request for shuteye repair time.
If I had nearly year-round access to a nearby Mt Hood like Max_501 does, all of my skiing days would be partial ones. But given my long skiing commute, I'm stubborn enough to try to get my time in.
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Post by livingproof on Apr 13, 2014 17:27:06 GMT -7
Plus, the PMTS crowd dogma is after 2 hours, your technique is toast! Hopefully you aren't questioning that... I've clear memories of skiing with Helluva, who changed from race boots and skis at noon to more pedestrian gear, stating that the stress of making Helluva turns was just too demanding for all day skiing. I respect his thinking as I've never experienced the demands his skiing places on the body, I'll listen and not debate in such matters. Many mornings, at my local hill, I ski with serious racer types, who tell me that after a couple of hours, their skiing work is done, and, depart early. The below saying is attributed to Navy Seals. "We do today what others choose not to do, so, that tomorrow, we do what others cannot." I've no argument with those in search of technical prowess, with the caveat that they should not judge others by their standards. If doing 2 hours at maximum intensity works for them, then good on them. I'll celebrate their accomplishment. I'd like to think that each day on the hill, I spend time pushing my body in some abnormal positions. I've some feel for how tiring good, short radius turns are as compared to easy SuperG radius turns. I appreciate the mental tenacity required to put all the individual pieces into the performance of a great turn. But, I cannot and will not live the Spartan existence required to ski with high technical competence. Call me unfocused, but, for me, it's ok to be an ok technical skier. Ditto for the golfer and tennis player in me. Athletic competency is all relative. Enjoying the experience, skiing with friends and smiling at day's end are enough for me. So, if I round out my day just having fun, and, not feeling the need to look at video, life can be very good.
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Post by superbman on Apr 14, 2014 4:53:11 GMT -7
Well said, LP!
The thread on PMTS regarding length of ski days is rather stupid. I mean, if the point is that 1. fatigue is a factor in any prolonged strenuous exertion and 2. Over time, fatigue effects performance, reaction times, speed, etc..well, no shit, Sherlock! That's undoubtedly true in everything from skiing to Horseshoes.
However, since most of us, actually none of us, spends a full day 'competing' on skis-what's the point? Yeah, I get it-moguls get harder after a few hours…so? If that message is only a musing about endurance and effectiveness, that's fine, but it's pretty trite.
On the other hand, if the point of that thread is to curtail people from skiing long ski days because, heaven forbid, they might not make PMTS style turns at their highest possible level, well, then go screw. The full ski day is not a 'fallacy' (what a strange choice of words), and a full-ski day is a worthy endeavor that is well-within the reach of any good skier with a modicum of fitness. The key, of course, is coming to see skiing as a delightful recreational pursuit, or an open-ended adventure, or a chance to spend a day in a gravity driven playground-not as a testing ground for pretend racers, or at least not all day.
I can still ski well for more than two hours, though I use a little pacing, terrain changing, sometimes even a ski change. Saturday was a perfect example (on a perfect spring day):
1. Caught first chair at Mt Snow at 8:55am and took 6-7 top to bottom groomer-zoomer runs with my boy (age 11 and skiing great!) and my bud. Snow had a soft freeze the night before, sun was bright and the turns were perfect. We kept at it until 10:30-11:00 then stopped at the top for water and and Bathroom break (about 5-10 minutes) and preceded to the Northface (Bump and Glade laden side of the mountain). First run was on that long 1000 ft plus vertical Lift Line run on huge moguls, which hadn't fully thawed yet. We poked around for about 45 minutes until the sun really worked it's magic and got anther 4-5 great bump runs in (with some glade portions mixed in).
2. Then we Gave our legs another quick break, got some water, at a few energy bars (another 10 minute break) and then did a number of runs in the 'Trials'-a top to bottom Glade run on the far left of the Northface (When open it's one of the best and most over looked glade runs in the East). Snow was perfect, and we had them to ourselves, and though taxing, it was less so than the moguls.
3. After a few runs of this, we pushed to do one non-stop top to bottom mogul run under the lift (which was awesome, but a shelling, Top was ok, the middle was great and had the best, smoothest most rhythmic bump line BUT I could barely move my skis by the last 3rd of the run! However, we were all pretty stoked to push a little beyond normal fatigue limits to see if we could do it. And since we could, we experienced 'elation!' not despair of disintegration technique).
After that, We took one more mixed run (glade mogul) on the Northface and headed back to the front side, which was now super soft, corned but smooth-ish. It was after 2, and due to Fatigue, I had nothing left for the moguls, but we managed a few great easy top to bottoms on the front side in the glorious sun, and then, at 3pm, headed onto the deck and drank a few beers to celebrate the close of a great season.
6 hours of great skiing, an hour+ of sunny great beer drinking and wings eating= A non-Fallacious ski day.
Now, if I had worried about technique slipping in my fallacious pursuit of enjoyment, I'd have missed a great day. Fortunately, I am able to ski well enough to enjoy a full day. And My final turns were pretty good. Of course Fatigue plays a factor, but thankfully both the terrain and my stylistic approach is malleable and versatile.
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Post by lynn on Apr 14, 2014 20:22:07 GMT -7
Superbman What you are posting above doesn't gibe with what you posted on Pmts. If you feel so strongly about that thread, why not be honest there? why the dichotomy?
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Post by superbman on Apr 15, 2014 9:00:06 GMT -7
What doesn't jibe with what? Dichotomy? Hardly.
From what I have learned, on that forum, you either have to write with obeisance or circumspection. Though obeisance is the most rewarded, circumspection allows for agreement where warranted and the subtle touches of disagreement if you read it closely enough.
Contrarianism of any kind, even in a thread that is opinion based and not about technique acquisition, leads to the deletion and forced editing of comments…or the LOCKING of the thread…which, is exactly what happened there (as that thread is now locked). Read over the comments if you like, you'll see a number of posters who acknowledged the validity of fatigue=technique degradation (duh!)-and early on there was the possibility that was all that was implied in the thread, a fair, but yes trite observation.
However, as the thread progressed, some posters accepted the initial premise but chafed at the argument that skiing long days was a no-no, or ultimately deleterious. And, because a few of the faithful didn't let that go, the thread was LOCKED. Which, suggests that the real implication was about more than a helpful reminder or musing about fatigue and performance (common to any sport, not just skiing). So much for honest opinions, eh?
Then, in a thread on the end of the ski season, this argument popped up again (and WAS NOT introduced by me, I might add)-leading to some other comments and thoughts about long days, technique and purpose. This, coupled with the evolution and eventual demise of the other thread prompted me to make a more thorough evaluation (some of it based on a very recent ski experience that is VERY APROPOS OF THIS THREAD'S ORIGINAL INTENTION) of this whole notion of fatigue, focused ski days, long ski days and the whole ski experience.
I don't know about your perceived jibing issues, but, I do know this forum affords a fairly expansive expression of ideas and opinions around skiing. And though this community mostly dons the mantle of PMTS enthusiasm, there is space and cause for more pointed observations. At least, I hope that is the case, otherwise, why have this forum at all?
Who's water are you carrying anyway?
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Post by JimRatliff on Apr 15, 2014 9:16:17 GMT -7
Well said, LP! The thread on PMTS regarding length of ski days is rather stupid. I mean, if the point is that 1. fatigue is a factor in any prolonged strenuous exertion and 2. Over time, fatigue effects performance, reaction times, speed, etc..well, no shit, Sherlock! That's undoubtedly true in everything from skiing to Horseshoes. Not "carrying anyone's water" or "goring anyone's ox"; Lynn just noted (as did I) the difference in tone between the two posts above and decided to call it. I don't know about your perceived jibing issues, but, I do know this forum affords a fairly expansive expression of ideas and opinions around skiing. And though this community mostly dons the mantle of PMTS enthusiasm, there is space and cause for more pointed observations. Thank you, it is certainly our desire to allow "fairly expansive expressions of opinions and thoughts" as long as they are done without rancor or personal attack, and your post certainly didn't cross the boundaries of those metrics. And I, personally, ski long days or short days, whatever is putting a smile on my face at that moment in time (and sometimes the biggest smile is when we decide that we've had enough). I've always said to myself that if I ever get to the point where I can't stand at the top of a run and admire all of the beauty around me and the joy of being outside, then I need an intervention. However, when I take a lesson with Bob Hintermeister (or anyone, probably) I find myself suffering from TMI, sensory overload, declining performance, and just plain "tired brain" and will usually be ready to quit well before the instructor.
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Post by ToddW on Apr 15, 2014 11:25:20 GMT -7
Super man,
Here's what some people see as the issue with frequently skiing past your daily prime.
1. Practice makes permanent. 2. You're always practicing something, even if you're not consciously aware of what it is. 3. Defocused minds and weary muscles make for sloppy practice ... and thus for ultimately subpar skiing in the future even when mind and body are at their peak.
This trade-off between instant gratification and future pleasure is a personal judgment call.
For those skiers who seek to ski somewhat after the fashion of the world's best, the choice of crisp, deliberate practice is clear. But it's not the choice for everyone.
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