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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2013 7:22:24 GMT -7
Hey Jim, some good tips. Thanks for that. As much as I like the idea of the fat bikes, I have no real desire to own one. But they are a neat idea, and I like that they have caught on and are evolving into lighter frames, etc. Next step: carbon fat bikes. That is really good advice on pedals. I hadn't considered the ice problem with SPD's. Valid issue. I will have to see if that becomes a problem here, as I plan to ride only when the trails are bare, but frozen. As mentioned, we are in a funny snow zone here -- about 40 km north of Lake Ontario; close enough to keep the snows away; but far enough to be colder. Strange micro-climates around the lakes. Some winters we have almost no snow; some winters we have plenty. But drive just 20 km further north, and there is always snow, and lots of it. What are frog pedals? I have never heard that term. If my SPD's ice up, then I would look at putting on some spiky platform pedals.
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Post by meput on Nov 27, 2013 18:27:57 GMT -7
Speedplay frogs are Speedplay's mtn. bike pedal. They allow free float like their road pedals. My bad knees really like pedals with float.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 27, 2013 20:26:02 GMT -7
For mtb pedals we use the Crank Brothers "Candy" pedal. 15 degrees or 22 degrees of float, depending on which shoe the cleat is mounted on (the cleats are assymetric) and the open spring design just never clogs up with anything. Plus, there is a classic pedal platform that allows you to start pedaling immediately if necessary irrespective of cleat engagement. In fact, pushing down to pedal will seat the cleat.
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Post by meput on Nov 28, 2013 4:26:25 GMT -7
Find the "free" float of a speed play works better for my knees. The float on pedals that have give before they release (like a ski binding) put pressure on the knee (rotational to recenter) leading to pain over time on a bike ride. Oh the joys of aging.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2013 7:08:15 GMT -7
I just checked out the Speedplay site and their Frog pedals. OK, I'm impressed. I never knew they made MTB pedals. There are a number of things that stand out with their design compared to SPD: easy release; lack of mud clogging; easy click-in; more float; and easy maintenance (just need a grease gun).
Knee pain from cycling is something I have been dealing with for the past two seasons, especially this year since I tweaked a knee skiing out west (wide skis, steep icy slope...not good. Common theme around here lately, knee pain is). The pedal comparison chart on the Speedplay site was enlightening, showing how little float the SPD really have. This has been a frustration with the SPD pedal/cleat system -- there is little float, and there is minimal rotational adjustment possible when fixing the cleat position. The combination of the two means the feet cannot rest on the pedals in their natural stance.
I will check out the Frogs more closely, and look to change my pedals if everything looks A-OK. A quick browse through the reviews on MTBR looks very promising. Thanks Jim, for twigging me onto that.
Jim-R, how have the Crank Bros. pedals been holding up for you? Any maintenance issues? The tech at my local shop was none too keen on those, saying they needed frequent rebuilding, and sometimes just blew apart...irreparably. And they were hard to click into (he might have been talking about the Egg Beaters, though.). Sounds like the Candy model does not have that problem. Can't recall what he said about ease of release, though.
Back to knee pain -- I had actually been contemplating going to platform pedals because of this. Then every time I climb a steep hill and nail it because I can pull on the upstroke, I think "Nah, maybe not just yet....".
Perry had a good post back on the SMF site about knee issues...I will copy and repost here.
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Post by meput on Nov 29, 2013 6:57:49 GMT -7
I just checked out the Speedplay site and their Frog pedals. OK, I'm impressed. I never knew they made MTB pedals. There are a number of things that stand out with their design compared to SPD: easy release; lack of mud clogging; easy click-in; more float; and easy maintenance (just need a grease gun). Knee pain from cycling is something I have been dealing with for the past two seasons, especially this year since I tweaked a knee skiing out west (wide skis, steep icy slope...not good. Common theme around here lately, knee pain is). The pedal comparison chart on the Speedplay site was enlightening, showing how little float the SPD really have. This has been a frustration with the SPD pedal/cleat system -- there is little float, and there is minimal rotational adjustment possible when fixing the cleat position. The combination of the two means the feet cannot rest on the pedals in their natural stance. I will check out the Frogs more closely, and look to change my pedals if everything looks A-OK. A quick browse through the reviews on MTBR looks very promising. Thanks Jim, for twigging me onto that. Back to knee pain -- I had actually been contemplating going to platform pedals because of this. Then every time I climb a steep hill and nail it because I can pull on the upstroke, I think "Nah, maybe not just yet....". Additional thoughts on the frogs, platform pedals, knee pain and float: Speedplay frogs are extremely easy to engage, easier than Speedplay road pedals. The engagement is not as positive as their road pedals. I have found myself engaged when I didn't expect it . I have never managed to clog my frog pedals/cleats requiring a stick, etc., to clean them out (that I remember - I am getting old and memory declines / senility sets in ). If I hop on a bicycle with platform pedals, I am subject to knee pain within a quarter of a mile. I have done that on numerous occasions when renting beach cruisers, jumping on an interesting bike at the bike shop, etc. My knees need the rotational give that float provides. Platform pedals have give but they do not have true float. Rotational give is further reduced if toe clips are used. I suspect need for rotational give/float is an aging phenomena. I do not remember (see above ) any knee issues when I was in my 20's and logging significant miles. At that time clip in pedals had not been invented. I was using cycling shoes with cleats that locked to the pedal, held in place by tightening the strap of the toe clip. The cleats allowed "pulling up". Essentially 0° of rotational give. When I returned to biking about 12 years ago, my first ride was about 13 miles and I experienced significant knee pain. For that ride, I used my old road bike with platform pedals / toe clips and a pair of smooth soled sneakers (tennis shoes) that in theory should have "allowed" some give. NOT! Since I enjoyed the ride, but not the knee pain, my quest into elimination of knee pain began. A friend was riding on Bee-bops introduced me to the concept of pedal float and the relationship to knee pain. Back to age, I am amazed at the amount of foot rotation that occurs on older riders or riders with history of leg trauma. This is easy to see by watching, from behind, the amount of lateral movement of the heal has as the rider pedals. The free float of a speed play is easier on my knees than float under spring tension wanting to recenter the foot. I have friends that like float/rotational give but want the sensation of recentering. They find speedplay pedals feel like they are sliding around on ice. Each to their own.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 29, 2013 8:18:27 GMT -7
This sounds like it could be a topic unto itself. I had some knee pain a couple of years back, mostly notable on road bike and not mountain bike. I took the foot beds out of my ski boots and put them in my bike shoes and rode pain free the rest of the year. The next year I found a Specialized bike store that carried their footbeds with plastic wedges that went under the footbeds to correct forefoot varus/valgus (varus for me). That fixed my knee pain problems.
My analysis was that my forefoot twist was causing the force to the pedal to be transferred through the outside of my foot rather than the ball of the foot, and that created unusual knee angles. meput, wat do you have now for a ski footbed. It may be interesting to hear what HSS sees, especially given your medical history.
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Post by meput on Nov 29, 2013 16:36:29 GMT -7
Jim,
My current ski boot footbeds were made by Glen. Since Harald trained Glen, hopefully Harald and Chris will approve.
Of interest, my bike shoes are Specialized brand. I have gone through several pairs since they started the "Body Geometry" footbeds that push the knees laterally. Rode with them once in my first pair and they were uncomfortable (don't remember if they caused actual pain). The footbeds are the first thing to go when I get new pairs of Specialized bike shoes. I replace with old footbeds from Louis Garmeau shoes that I wore before my Specialized shoes.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 29, 2013 17:20:47 GMT -7
Shoes that push your knees laterally? Anyway, forefoot varus is a twist in the foot with the ball of the foot elevated. The wedge allows me to put even pressure across the whole shoe surface. Became more of a problem with my stiffer soled Sidi shoes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 17:29:18 GMT -7
An interesting topic, knee pain. I had quite a bit of it last cycling season, but then got some new Shimano bike shoes and put some A-Line footbeds in them. This season has been pretty good -- the occasional bout if I give it too hard on the steep climbs. Except for the left knee which I pulled on the ski slopes, which hurts most of the time. The pain there is likely more related to the ski injury than to cycling. Still, I would like to improve things further, and if the Speedplay with more float will get me to a happy place, then I am in. Definitely worth a try.
The A-Line footbeds are great, by the way. Off the shelf, trim to fit, firm, solid and well made. They have support which extends forward under the metatarsals, which I think is unique among off-the-shelf beds. My daughter uses then in her ski boots, and loves them. Between those and a little bit of boot work, it fixed a Morton's Neuroma problem that she was having.
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