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Post by ToddW on Nov 22, 2014 16:32:00 GMT -7
Rich, welcome!
I just finished my 6th day of skiing for the season, and have had the good fortune to ski with 5 pmts instructors, some of them more than once. Without Rich's gentle feedback over 3 days, I wouldn't have been ready to jump in and chase Jay around the mountain (amazing how that can can revive dormant movement patterns).
Today's instructor was Lester. I spotted his distinctive turns from a hundred yards away. Red jacket, red atomic skis, pmts, and feet glued together like that could be no one but Lester.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 23, 2014 9:25:05 GMT -7
Can I ask a few questions about the short turn camp? How long are these camps? How is each day Broken down? Is the Short turn camp dedicated solely to the Bullet Proof Brushed Carved or is a pursuit of all types of short turn (Pure slalom carve and the Brushed carve)? Do most folks leave the camp with a pretty credible all-mountain short turn that they can put right into all mountain skiing (Is this one of the camps that has a 'previous camp experience' prerequisite)? Does the Short Turn Replace the Super-Blue…and is it a prerequisite for the Bumps camp (Is Harald doing another bump camp this season…)? I must say, it's a pretty unique sounding product, There are other 'ski improvement clinics, terrain mastery clinics (bumps, pow, steep, etc). But I really love the idea of a camp dedicated to a single turn that works all over. You all know I'm an outlier, but of all the camps, this one always seems the most compelling, so I'm just wondering. Liam: My thoughts, which are certainly not going to be as accurate as what others might post (Todd and Rich and Helluva). I haven't taken a Short Turns camp, but Lynn and I have been working with Bob Hintermeister the last couple of years, with recent focus on short turns. When we asked him about short turns vs. all-mountain camp he recommended the all-mountain for us based on how well we are doing and because all mountain is a continuation of short turns (and some groups probably get 3-D in the short turns camp as well). As for your basic question, I don't feel very much difference between a fully engaged carve and a brushed carve except for ankle pressure. All of the movements and balance issues are the same. Most of the time I can switch between the two mid-turn if i wish using nothing but my ankle. I will say that standing across the hill and making a 7-10 foot turn with no momentum, no push off, and no stemming is challenging, instructional, and informational. Getting my upper body positioned to be able to flatten and release my skis and let them just drift down the hill was hard for me, because while i have good feet the rest of my body is often not where it needs to be. My skis won't drift down the hill if my weight isn't on the front if the skis, and you can't release without falling over if you don't have balance above, as examples I have/do struggled with. One of the best ideas Lynn and I one day was to start every run with the turn just described (unless it was too flat). The drill ooccupied very little of the day (maybe 3-4 starts in a 2000' vertical run) but it made us better by the end of the. There was the doing, but also the thinking about what we would be doing. And if we flubbed it, we had to stop and restart.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 23, 2014 9:40:17 GMT -7
I think Super Blue is synonomous with All Mountain.
Short Turn is 5 days. 2/3 split between half days and full days, and includes alignment check ( on snow or static). The huge advantage of the 6 skier grouping is that you will all be skiers of like ability. You aren't holding others back, they aren't holding you back. .Most people probably leave camp feeling like they are poorer skiers than when they went in, but then feel like they make great progress the rest of the year. One week to tear down any bad habits and truly incorporate new ones into "muscle memory" doesn't happen in a week (especially at 65+).
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Post by lynn on Nov 23, 2014 18:13:36 GMT -7
Hi Liam welcome to snow season 2014-15.
As Jim mentioned, he mislabeled the camp we are taking.
I believe Dan B has just finished a short turns camp, though. Hopefully he will post his experience of the camp.
You will have a year to decide if this is the camp for you. Do some research and decide if it is the right one for you.
You have until this summer to decide.
HSS and company have reached a tipping point. The camps fill up in about 2-3 weeks after they are posted.
Diana and Harald private lessons fill up shortly thereafter.
Let it snow! L.
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Post by superbman on Nov 24, 2014 10:20:19 GMT -7
I'm not really looking for any camp, Lynn, I was just interested in hearing how a camp dedicated to short turns was run and how it differed from the other camps. Are any of HH's camps sequential? I mean, are attendees expected to have gone through one camp before 'moving up' or 'branching out' to other camps? Is there much 'sorting' prior to going to a camp? What happens when less than ready skiers show up for a more advanced camp--or, is that actively sorted out before registration is excepted?
I ask because they run so many camps, each with a different spin (by comparison, Clendenin's camps, from what I can tell, differ by location and duration, but I get the sense the curriculum is the same with groups sorted at each camp on ability, but it doesn't seem as though one camp is more advanced or more focused than another). It's another of the unique attributes of HH's camps, variety in focus.
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Post by JimRatliff on Nov 24, 2014 17:16:49 GMT -7
You are correct in that there is a pretty well defined movement progression thru PMTS, but each camp's focus is on a different slot in the continuum even though each group in a given camp isn't at exactly the same point on the continuum. One of the BIG advantages of the PMTS approach is the consistency of teaching progression. When we take private lessons with Bob Hintermeister (who is PMTS and PSIA certified) we get instruction from that continuum based on what he sees of where we are, same as a camp, except that camps always swap instructors during the week so two different people see your skiing and select things to help you move toward the goal. When you register for a camp , they ask you to describe your skiing, what camps you may have attended, and what your goals for the camp are. This is where they look for potential issues. They also ask what skis you use, since one guy showed up at a green camp with 110 mm waisted skis and didn't understand why they didn't feel they could effectively instruct with his equipment. (They refunded his money after he refused their offer to provide him a pair of skis much more likely to provide him a positive camp experience.)
So, not everyone has to start with a Green camp, then a Green-Blue, then a Blue, then a Short Turns, then Super Blue -- but HH and DR have to be comfortable that your skills, movement base and goals fall within the expected range of skiers likely to sign up for a given camp.
Note: I'm winging it here just based on my observations, the PMTS forum and Harb Ski Systems are the definitive source of such information.
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Post by ToddW on Nov 24, 2014 19:47:02 GMT -7
Liam,
Remember that the short turn camp is a PMTS short turn camp. If you show up without owning to some degree a PMTS turn, it is unlikely that you will develop a PMTS short turn during camp. Remember, other technique systems and PMTS generally mix about as well as oil and water -- PMTS is best served pure. I attended the first-ever short turn camp. So did a couple of people looking for very early season instruction at a good price. Their skiing improved, but they didn't develop a PMTS short turn. They belonged in a blue/dark-blue camp (or the green-blue camp in 2 cases.) And they held a couple others back somewhat. One of the strongest coaches was assigned to that group to lessen the drag effect.
In the days of the old all mountain camp, people who genuinely didn't make the cut were dropped because of the limited all mountain terrain available. (The prereqs were to regularly ski expert all mountain terrain all day including slush, ice, steeps, and bumps or to send video for assessment before registering.) The current superblue merges this camp with a section or two of blue camp for spouses who ski at a different level but want to share a ski trip. They now have access to a venue that allows for intro to all-mountain terrain to allow for the transition to all-mountain skier and groomers for the blue sections.
Most return customers seek advice from HSS about which camp is most appropriate for them.
If your interest goes beyond curiosity and you wish to take a camp, send a video of your current season skiing and ask which camps are best suited for you. That's much better than guessing or choosing based on the calendar.
BTW, Hintertux session 1 filled up in a couple hours during preferred enrollment this year. I had to sign up for session 2 because I didn't see the mail for 4 hours, but I am first on the waiting list for #1.
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Post by danboisvert on Nov 24, 2014 19:48:47 GMT -7
Can I ask a few questions about the short turn camp? How long are these camps? How is each day Broken down? Is the Short turn camp dedicated solely to the Bullet Proof Brushed Carved or is a pursuit of all types of short turn (Pure slalom carve and the Brushed carve)? Do most folks leave the camp with a pretty credible all-mountain short turn that they can put right into all mountain skiing (Is this one of the camps that has a 'previous camp experience' prerequisite)? Does the Short Turn Replace the Super-Blue…and is it a prerequisite for the Bumps camp (Is Harald doing another bump camp this season…)? I must say, it's a pretty unique sounding product, There are other 'ski improvement clinics, terrain mastery clinics (bumps, pow, steep, etc). But I really love the idea of a camp dedicated to a single turn that works all over. You all know I'm an outlier, but of all the camps, this one always seems the most compelling, so I'm just wondering. Having just gotten back from last week's short turns camp, I'll answer as well as I can while it's still fresh. There's a 5-day short turns camp as well as a 3-day intensive short turns camp. All of the intensive camps require you to have skied with HSS before and have current alignment. I'm not aware of a firm prerequisite for the 5-day version, which builds in time for alignment assessment and correction. The general schedule includes full days on Monday and Thursday (with an apres ski function following each, where HSS provides enough snacks that I skipped dinner both nights), and half days Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. There's an alignment condo set up relatively nearby for assessments and boot plating on the afternoons that don't feature instruction. -Monday started out with a ski-off, and they sorted us into groups based on that. The criteria seemed to include both how comfortable/aggressive you looked as well as how much your skiing resembled PMTS. HSS gets A LOT of repeat business, and those of us who had never been to a camp before were a very small minority. I got assigned to Walter Edberg's group, where I met 5 other nice students, including Rich K, who I think was a bit of a ringer, because his movements looked way more like PMTS than the rest of ours. Next, I think we did a couple brief drills, and then shot our "before" video, as well as some video of balancing drills for use in sussing out alignment issues. The rest of the day was filled with drills, drills, video analysis, lunch, and drills. -Tuesday was mostly drills, drills, more video, some focused skiing, and drills, and ended with lunch & video review. -Wednesday was drills, drills, yet more video, drills, and some focused skiing, and ended with lunch & video review. -Thursday morning, we all traded coaches, and our group got Harald for the rest of the week. We did more drills, more focused skiing, video, lunch & video review, more drills, and more focused skiing. -Friday was drills, drills, focused skiing, video, more focused skiing, and lunch. Rich can correct any of that if I've misremembered. ------- In the land of PMTS, the movements don't change between turns, so what you learn works for all of them. I don't remember brushing or carving being addressed explicitly in camp; we focused on the movements that make good turns, and let the outcome take care of itself. It's an interesting approach that works really well, and caused me some brain cramps while trying to stop thinking about making turns. ------- I don't know how to answer your question about the credible all-mountain turn. It was early enough in the season that almost all that was open was groomers, so I didn't have the opportunity to observe that. The all-mountain camp is called Super Blue, and is later in the season when more stuff is open. I can tell you that my turns will be better everywhere, with the stuff I got out of this camp. I learned a lot. ------- When I asked HH about where to go next, he suggested Super Blue and/or the Bumps intensive camp for me. All of the intensive camps require you to have skied with HSS before and have current alignment, so the Short Turns camp fulfills that requirement. Super Blue doesn't seem to have rigid prerequisites. ------- Hope that helps some!
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Post by gary on Dec 2, 2014 7:31:27 GMT -7
Hey Dan....sounds like you had a very intense but well worth the trip experience. Keep applying those skill sets and over the season you'll see HUGE improvements!
Best, G
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Post by ron on Dec 4, 2014 12:19:57 GMT -7
hey I was skiing at AB on November 18th, Saw the HH crews there. Too bad I didn't know you guys were there! Who all was there?
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