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Post by JimRatliff on Jul 25, 2014 11:50:56 GMT -7
WOW. What a move by Niboli. I didn't realize he was a climber, but his acceleration and speed on the 20% grade at the end of the final climb was just awesome. I repeat, "Wow, what a move by Nibali." At the time, I thought it might be a one-time effort, but he continued to appear to be a man among the "boys" (as Liggett would say). Every time he made a move it appeared to be well thought out and he appeared to have the legs (and/or will) to do it. Clearly he was a marked man for the most of the race, and he and HIS TEAM were up to the challenge. Obviously it's not over until they reach the Champs Elysees, but Astana certainly seems to have won the race based on time as well as on my totally subjective assessment of Niboli's riding and leadership and overall race strategy. Maybe I even have to tip my hat a bit to Vinakourev who was reported to be "critical" of Niboli (aka chewed him out?) at a point where it helped motivate him in getting ready for and performing in the tour? Who knows, but the team performed well and that is almost certainly a reflection of the team manager. It was as brutal a tour as I remember watching -- and Niboli may have been the only GC contender that didn't spend any time on the ground/pavement. What was it Kenny Rogers sang? You got to know when to hold 'em, but you also need to know when to fold 'em and play it safe? There is a time to race, and there is a time to bide your time, and Niboli seemed to be everything right.
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Post by meput on Jul 25, 2014 18:16:16 GMT -7
I am happy for the Garmin-Sharp Team and their Stage 19 win. They have had a horrendous Tour. Losing Talansky, then having Bauer get swept up by the peloton 30 feet from winning Stage 15. I repeat, "Wow, what a move by Nibali." At the time, I thought it might be a one-time effort, but he continued to appear to be a man among the "boys" (as Liggett would say). Every time he made a move it appeared to be well thought out and he appeared to have the legs (and/or will) to do it. Clearly he was a marked man for the most of the race, and he and HIS TEAM were up to the challenge. ... It was as brutal a tour as I remember watching -- and Niboli may have been the only GC contender that didn't spend any time on the ground/pavement. What was it Kenny Rogers sang? You got to know when to hold 'em, but you also need to know when to fold 'em and play it safe? There is a time to race, and there is a time to bide your time, and Niboli seemed to be everything right. Nibali has had a charmed Tour. The Astana Team has performed well. Every time pressure has been placed on Nibali, he has countered with his own attack that could not be answered (Chris Horner's attack on the Hautacam). Ni quality time on the ground. The loss of the two top contenders due to having too much quality time on the ground (Froome and Contador). We find out tomorrow how well he can time trial. Baring a crash with injury, I don't see him losing over 7 minutes and the yellow jersey. Assuming he makes it to Paris in yellow, it will be an impressive Tour win with 4 stage wins and only 2 days out of the yellow jersey. Brings back memories of Lance's wins. Lance rarely went down. Rarely flatted. It was Lance's competitors that went down, flatted, mechanicals etc. Just like Nibali this Tour. If my memory serves me, I think Liggett used the "man among boys" phrase to describe Lance when he was dominating. That raises the question, is there something special that is giving Nibali "an edge"? The weather conditions have been brutal. More rain stages than I remember from prior Tours. Rain equals crashes, flats, and respiratory illness for the riders, in other words misery.
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Post by ToddW on Jul 26, 2014 15:44:06 GMT -7
That raises the question, is there something special that is giving Nibali "an edge"? Super phantom move? It's the stealth route to big edges. Okay, got my bearings back. The lightning storm jarred me out of hibernation two months early.
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Post by JimRatliff on Jul 26, 2014 21:40:02 GMT -7
LOL. You are absolutely right Todd. I'll bet Vinakourov taught Nibali his "super phantom" technique.
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Post by livingproof on Jul 27, 2014 7:56:44 GMT -7
I've followed the TDF a lot less this year, but, I have to be super impressed with Nibali. While he is a great climber, his performance in the time trial stamped him as a true champion. I was hoping he would also be King of the Mountains, it sure was interesting watching the last climbs. He sucked the drama out in the last few days, truly an impressive win. Can't imagine Froome or Contador beating him if they had not crashed. I'm just in awe of the effort required to ride and complete the Tour, especially in the weather encountered this year. I just can't imagine riding 120 miles a day for 3 weeks, plus the climbing is unreal (As a climber, I suck, literally and figuratively).
I read an interesting article today where he credits the anti-doping efforts as the biggest reason he was able to win. The article claims Nibali is known as a very clean rider, and, if so, it's great to see pro cycling moving past it's doping issues. There are some discussions about ego-centric Lance earlier in this thread, which I've not commented on, but, his issues brought a great sport into the gutters. He was not the first or only, but, the rational that "everybody does it" is bs in my book. He's now a certified liar, stripped of honor, let him wallow in his own mess. I'm hoping that his lawsuits resulting from fraudulent statements put a big dent in his assets. End of Lance rant.
Back to the TDF, it remains a great summer event. Most mornings, I watch a little, then ride a little, then watch the very end. Good way to spend the morning. And build the body up for the upcoming super phantom turns.
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Post by meput on Jul 27, 2014 13:49:29 GMT -7
Another Tour is in the books. I think history will look back at this Tour as one of the hardest, in recent history, on the peloton: physically and mentally. The 3 prior Tour winners all crashed out. American up and coming riders Talansky and VanGarderen each had their crashes and physical issues. At least VanGarderen salvaged some pride at being 5th overall. A lot of days with rain. Some of the days with rain teased the riders with sun, then dumped on them. At least the riders had team mechanics to clean up the bikes and put them right. Then there were the winners. Many riders had a great Tour. Nibali (with his super phantom move - thanks Todd ) had a fantastic Tour. He and his team were charmed. No major crashes. Astana finished with all nine riders and Nibali in yellow. Nibali even showed us that he can be respectable in the time trial, finishing fourth. Sagan dominated in the sprint points category and had the green jersey won 3/4 through the Tour. The King of the Mountain/polka dot jersey was well contested and fun to follow. Majka will be a fun rider to watch in the future. Thibout Pinot, winning the white jersey, as best young rider and on the podium will be another rider to watch. Kittel showed everyone he was the best sprinter at winning stages. Tony Martin showed he was the best Time Trialist, both in the time trial and out on the road. The fans were winners. Lots of twists and turns. Nibali dominated through out the Tour, but early on there was doubt that could he sustain it. Then Froome, Schleck and Contador all crashing out. Out went his proven competitors. Talansky dropped out and VanGarderen was band aided together and that left Valverde as the only pre race favorite to challenge Nibali. As fans we get to wonder the what ifs. Would Froome and Contador have been able to do battle with Nibali? Would Talansky and VanGarderen have been able to do battle if they hadn't spent as much time on the ground? Would Nibali have been the "man among boys" if his primary competition in the mountains had made it to the mountains. In turn, it sets up the 2015 Tour. Will Nibali be able to defend next year if Froome, Contador, Talansky and VanGarderen all come back healthy and stay healthy. Will Quintana be in next year's Tour? Will Nibali still have his super phantom move going or will it be determined he had the equivalent of a bottle of nitrous oxide to give him a "boost" when he needed it. Time will tell. LP, your Lance rant is valid, especially "He was not the first or only".... Lets us fans continue to wonder the "what ifs". A great Tour de France this year. Once again, I'm sorry it is over and I will miss it as a sport event until next July.
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Post by JimRatliff on Jul 28, 2014 11:32:41 GMT -7
..... Lance ...... but, his issues brought a great sport into the gutters. .... He was not the first or only, but, the rational that "everybody does it" is bs in my book. He's now a certified liar, stripped of honor, let him wallow in his own mess. I disagree. Lance has rightfully been shown to have feet of clay, but I'm not sure he is the villian. Name me any sport where competitive people don't push every boundary and more (legal and otherwise) in an effort to win. NASCAR, MLB, Little League World Series where the true ages of players is in doubt and condoned by their country, Horse Racing, NFL, Texas High School football where almost every athlete winds up getting held back a year, NBA, Pro Golf. It's pervasive -- it's "human nature". My thought: It is the responsibility of the "organizers" to post and enforce rules that keep the competition fair and level (really what we all want). How long did it take MLB to clean up steroids (once they finally decided that they had gotten enough years of free publicity from the exploits of the Mark McGuires and Barry Bonds of the time)? Hmm, is it clean now Alex Rodriguez? And I believe the Tour de France organizers and the International Cycling Union were far more complicit than MLB. How much money did Lance "earn" for them? And i doubt we have heard the last of doping in pro-cycling. 2. Everyone does it? My thought: Lance may have been able to win multiple Tour de France titles if EVERYONE was clean in those years. He would not, in my opinion, have won ANY titles in those years if HE were clean. Which of us would take that challenge, especially when it permeated so many levels of bike racing. Would a clean Lance have won enough other stuff to make a Tour team. 3. Lance lied to us. My thought. Put 50 people in a room with the IRS present and ask if they cheated on their taxes? Put 50 men (or women) in a room and ask if they cheated on their spouse? Ask 50 Wall Street brokers if they used insider information? Ask 50 bike riders if the day if they doped? The "lie detector machine" would go up in smoke for any of these. 4. Law suits. My thought. Why is the United States Postal Service not suing the International Cycling Union for running a crooked game? Also, did USPS get good value for thir investment? Hell yes!! There are terms that apply here, and they are scapegoat and "lightning rod". There is nothing better to hide your bad deeds than nominate and castigate another as the bad guy (the Nazis and their use of the Jews in WWII always come to mind here). And the truth is that most of us (maybe not all) live in glass houses. A question that everyone might consider. What would you have done in Lance's shoes in that day and time. Not intended as a rant, just my thoughts.
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Post by meput on Jul 28, 2014 15:44:24 GMT -7
I disagree. Lance has rightfully been shown to have feet of clay, but I'm not sure he is the villian.Name me any sport where competitive people don't push every boundary and more (legal and otherwise) in an effort to win. NASCAR, MLB, Little League World Series where the true ages of players is in doubt and condoned by their country, Horse Racing, NFL, Texas High School football where almost every athlete winds up getting held back a year, NBA, Pro Golf. It's pervasive -- it's "human nature". My thought: It is the responsibility of the "organizers" to post and enforce rules that keep the competition fair and level (really what we all want). How long did it take MLB to clean up steroids (once they finally decided that they had gotten enough years of free publicity from the exploits of the Mark McGuires and Barry Bonds of the time)? Hmm, is it clean now Alex Rodriguez? And I believe the Tour de France organizers and the International Cycling Union were far more complicit than MLB. How much money did Lance "earn" for them? And i doubt we have heard the last of doping in pro-cycling. 2. Everyone does it? My thought: Lance may have been able to win multiple Tour de France titles if EVERYONE was clean in those years. He would not, in my opinion, have won ANY titles in those years if HE were clean. Which of us would take that challenge, especially when it permeated so many levels of bike racing. Would a clean Lance have won enough other stuff to make a Tour team. 3. Lance lied to us. My thought. Put 50 people in a room with the IRS present and ask if they cheated on their taxes? Put 50 men (or women) in a room and ask if they cheated on their spouse? Ask 50 Wall Street brokers if they used insider information? Ask 50 bike riders if the day if they doped? The "lie detector machine" would go up in smoke for any of these. 4. Law suits. My thought. Why is the United States Postal Service not suing the International Cycling Union for running a crooked game? Also, did USPS get good value for thir investment? Hell yes!! There are terms that apply here, and they are scapegoat and "lightning rod". There is nothing better to hide your bad deeds than nominate and castigate another as the bad guy (the Nazis and their use of the Jews in WWII always come to mind here). And the truth is that most of us (maybe not all) live in glass houses. A question that everyone might consider. What would you have done in Lance's shoes in that day and time. Not intended as a rant, just my thoughts. Wow. Broadside. This almost smacks of a political argument, there are 2 sides to every position. Each side can be correct. Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, truth is in the belief of the beholder. To bring it closer to home, PMTS vs TTS. Which way is the truth? Granted I know there is only one way to true skiing, to think otherwise is just fallacy. There are many that are very angry at Lance because of the story that he spun. Everyone wanted to believe him, after all he is a cancer survivor and "deserves our sympathy" and we all "love a winner". History is showing us that he is a narcissistic, arrogant, lying a..hole. He probably does not deserve any love or respect. He will get what history deems is appropriate (and the good lord above). What I find hypocritical is effort to try and write him out of cycling history. The ASO and the UCI wants us to think the 7 Tours that Lance "won" now don't exist. What a farce.
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Post by JimRatliff on Jul 29, 2014 4:04:46 GMT -7
Meput: True. There is more If a religious fervor in my post than I realized I had. I'm pondering that. My apologies to all I offended.
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Post by JimRatliff on Jul 30, 2014 21:19:34 GMT -7
Meput: True. There is more If a religious fervor in my post than I realized I had. I'm pondering that. My apologies to all I offended. I think my bias's (?) come from a number of youth baseball experiences, and a lot of anecdotal reading. Stuff like: -Fathers teaching their 11 year old sons a curveball so they can be the pitcher dad never was. (Offset by actual major league pitchers and coaches stating the contrary and not letting their own children less than 18 learn or throw one). -College baseball coaches over using their star pitcher on the way to the College World Series. -The number of first round drafted pitchers needing Tommy John surgery less than 18 months after being drafted. -The whole concussion mindset in the NFL (and college). -The NCAA and colleges making boatloads of money off of athletics (and athletes) while pretending that star athletes are "just students" and the VAST majority are getting a watered down education and probably no degree. My ?rant? above really wasn't about Lance so much, I think, as about our society. The coaches and organizations that are supposed to be helping the youth grow into men is more likely to be most interested in using them for their own gain. Lance is a grown man and responsible for consequences of his actions. However, each of us is somewhat the product of our experiences, and any super athletes experiences include this "win at all costs", "take one for the gipper", "the ends justify the means" mindset. When does the prize athlete cease to be the pampered primadona above the college rules and with money coming from the boosters and become the person mature enought to be responsible for the consequences of decisions. And yet, the spotlight shines brightest on the athlete. I've never heard of a college booster going to jail for cushy "summer jobs" for the football team. The NCAA or the NFL doesn't investigate itself, they worry mostly about their own financial liability while they "investigate" and blame others. The International Cycling Union doesn't fine itself $10,000,000 for running a crooked ship with little more than token drug tests (maybe with prior notification in certain cases). And that is really the root of my rant, the pervasive way that the rich, powerful, and influential athletic infrastucture uses and abuses the athletes (and the competition iself) for their own gain. And so I wonder, if I were a 14 year old bike racer growing up in that (hopefully past) dirty environment, when do I cease to be a kid "doing what everyone else is doing" and make a decision to sacrifice my career by ceasing to cheat and dope? It's a good thing, I guess, that I was never a good enough athlete to have this problem, because I doubt that I would be able to get off of the treadmill any more than many others. If I'm a Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa faced with an average (or less) major league career and someone tells me that these injections will allow me to help my team win more games, and/or result in larger contracts for me, could I say "no thank you, I'll stay average." It's a slippery slope. Maybe it looks a lot different when you are climbing than when you get to the top and someone says, "hey, you cheated". Lance Armstrong, from all reports, is just an ugly person, and it isn't my intent to defend him or his actions. Has he been treated fairly? I have no idea what "fair" really means in such a sordid system.
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