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Post by superbman on Feb 24, 2014 8:28:13 GMT -7
My 10th camp is in a month (hintertux, good skiing and better Bier). I plan to show off my full repertoire of poor skiing. In fact, I'm giving HH a sneak preview of my skiing next week. -------- For the most part, I don't much care for my shadow's skiing. But when the sun came out this afternoon, he did a couple things that amazed me. I want those turns of his. The fun is in the journey. Life would be boring if we could pay for a five day camp and suddenly ski like a WC ski god. WC ski god maybe not, but why after 9+ focused camps, years of practice, equipment work and advice, and many, many days of skiing (and evidently even some personal time with HH) would you still think of yourself as a 'poor skier?' That's the reoccurring theme I hear again and again on this forum and over on PMTS. Why does every request for MA or statement about one's skiing have to come with such over-the-top self deprecations about one's abilities? Is it false modesty or an ingrained inferiority and insecurity that drives the camp-going bus? I get the 'with good coaching and work I can always get better', but that's not how it comes across. I'll bet that ToddW is, in fact, a good skier (WC ski god notwithstanding). In fact, with all you've apparently put into skiing, if PMTS is worth its salt, I'd suspect (or expect) that he's a very good skier. And probably should be comfortable saying so. And if not, well, someone owes you a refund. And that goes for all the other frequent flyers, too. That's what I like about Gary's Posts, he knows, through his varied camp experiences et al., that he skis pretty darn well, not as well as some others, but good enough to say, yeah, I'm pretty good. Is that the result of tapping into the 'Love Spot' instead of the SMIM? Or having tapped into both in a focused and professional way?
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Post by JimRatliff on Feb 24, 2014 9:18:39 GMT -7
Superbman:
That is a darn good series of questions, and probably relates back to your earlier thread of "what is good skiing". I had actually expected more discussion at that time.
Speaking for myself, I am a self-deprecating type of person. If I actually had a personal motto, it would be that I prefer to "under promise and over deliver". I am aware that I almost always do "over deliver" but I remain self deprecating. Only Freud could explain the origins or process behind that.
When I was in graduate school, I had the opportunity to associate with some really bright people. I was aware that I am pretty intelligent, but having encountered truly bright individuals tempers my ability to say "yeah, I'm pretty smart." And, FWIW, while Todd is probably as smart as any of them I wouldn't ever expect him to say so; but I digress.
It is certainly the case that the more I've learned (or the better I have become) the fewer "good skiers" I see at the resorts. I see lots of people that are enjoying skiing, and there are many that ski fast, that straight line the bumps, some that even jump off of 15-20 foot cliffs. And there are some among that group that I just "feel" are good skiers.
I saw this in the Olympics. There were some that got down the course fast, but there were others that just looked smooth doing it. Shiffrin and Ligety (in his first GS run) gave me that feeling. There were some others that had that same smooth look that weren't fast. I don't believe it is about using PMTS movements, but there is something in a good skiers (or boarders) (or ice skaters) movements that just looks graceful and balanced and "at ease". I have runs every now and then when it is almost "out of body" in the sensation of my knees sucking up to change edges and when my conscious brain can stop thinking about what muscles need to make me move, but that isn't often. So, while Lynn and I ski almost anywhere on the mountain that we feel like going, we don't do it with the "grace and ease" that would let us call ourselves good skiers. However, noe of that interferes with our ability to just enjoy the heck out of skiing.
There also may be some self selection going on. Those that take a camp may be a certain personality that is not satisfied with their current skiing. That personality type may always be reaching higher, never willing to say "I am good enough"?
As far as Gary tapping into his love spot, I'm not sure I want to touch that.
Actually, as I think about it, I believe there are others on this forum that have also gotten past the self deprecating stage; Helluva, HighAngles, and Geoffda are clearly good skiers.
Another thought. Lynn has run the New York Marathon a couple of times. I could have been content with just finishing, but I'm pretty sure that she would not call herself a good runner and was never content with her time.
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Post by gary on Feb 24, 2014 9:38:05 GMT -7
Hey guys...just thinking how often I've met terminal clinicians...THAT DOES work for some people because it gives them hope above all that following "the path" is their way to "skiing salvation"!
I personally am not cut from that cloth...I find skiing fun......playing like a child, using all my tools gathered through the years to jump, bump, explore, green it, blue and black it...wherever I so desire.
I hold only myself accountable for how much fun I'm having. FUN, is why I ski,...Do I strive to be fluid and effortless, YES without a doubt..but I also strive to be able to explore the mountain in ways a few years ago was pretty much unobtainable.
I am happy for those that continue to strive to improve...taking a concept and working into their skiing. But making any single form of skiing GOSPEL....does not or ever will resonate with me. Just watching the worlds best skiers competing...I saw SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many techniques in a variety of events...just made me smile. They get it!
In an interview I heard, Julie Mancuso said something that totally registered with me...She said she has learned to let her body relax, knees, ankles, hips...just to feel the snow..to let her body react to the conditions she is given. I love that!
If one is so focused on the drills and/or that perfect form they seek....are we creating so much tension in our bodies to accomplish what Mancuso states and how she skis?
Try this sometime...start at the top of your favorite run where you always feel like a champion...close your eyes, take 3 deep breaths, tell yourself, I want to feel how LOOSE I can keep my ankles, knees, quads, and hips...how relaxed I can FEEL...no thoughts of drills, no perfect form...just let your body relax and DO what it already knows how to do. THIS IS WAY COOL! Once you own it on your favorite run...focus on THAT feeling on more challenging runs and watch what happens. That "fluid skier" in you will magically appear. This really works!
There's a little Olympian in each one of us...we just have to let it happen. G
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Post by HeluvaSkier on Feb 24, 2014 13:08:34 GMT -7
Liam,
I think what you’re seeing is a group of people who have set their bar pretty high in terms of what they want to achieve with their skiing. For many, the bar is to ski like Harald. That is a pretty lofty goal when you are comparing yourself against one of the best demo skiers in North America. Due to the extensive use of video, there is no question when you leave a camp, about how you stack up. Not only are you taught to ski, but you’re also taught how to evaluate skiing. These aren’t skiers that are comparing themselves to everyone on the mountain… they are comparing themselves to literally, not only the best skiers they know, but the best skiers in the world.
Liam, you for example, have seen yourself ski. In a normal distribution of skiers on the mountain, you’re toward the top I’m sure. Now take the best skier you know… how do you stack up against that person? Let’s say you’re the best skier at your mountain. Okay, take guys like Reilly, Richie, Sato, Pussnig, Hirscher, Neureuther, etc… how do you stack up now? Interpretation of one’s ability is relative to what you are comparing to.
There are days that I come out of a video session and hate every single run I see on camera… knowing full well that there are those out there who only dream of skiing turns like the ones I just threw away as garbage skiing. That is no different than ToddW wishing his shadow would shape up and ski right for a change. If you don’t like dissecting our comments – recall the microphone on Bode and his wife after he landed on the podium in the SG… If you hadn’t seen Bode’s run, and only listened to his comments about it, you would have thought that he skied the course in a power wedge. We are our own worst critics; but that is what builds a great skier.
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Post by HeluvaSkier on Feb 24, 2014 13:13:10 GMT -7
To follow up on my previous post – why would anyone want to do that to themselves? Well, the answer is the end result, and the process of getting there.
The transformation of one’s skiing also takes hard work and time – a lot of both. I came in as an already strong product of ski racing, and it still took me roughly 150-180 days of dedicated practice over 4 seasons to get to a level where I was showing results that I was even somewhat pleased with. Admittedly, due to my age, fitness level, background, and athletic ability I achieved certain goals faster than most; but I still worked my ass off for several years before I had a day of skiing where I left the mountain saying “okay, now I’ve achieved something”. I remember the day in fact… Saturday, March 14, 2009.
A normal skier would look at that 150+ days as “wasted” since there were many days I left the mountain disgusted with how I was skiing. Often I hated being seemingly a novice in the sport that I once felt like I was at the top of. Having experienced that frustration for me, has made the results that much more rewarding. For many, the challenge that the improvement process presents is fun and exciting. Achieving those goals is even more rewarding.
Eight years later I can step back and say to myself – “Look at what I’ve achieved in the past 8 seasons.” I know where my skiing currently stacks up against the guys listed above, I know where I want to ultimately take my skiing, and I know how to get there. Will I ever reach their level? Maybe, maybe not; but I know I am nowhere near the pinnacle of my own capabilities – and knowing that keeps me pushing the envelope further every time I am on snow.
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Post by smackboy1 on Feb 24, 2014 15:32:17 GMT -7
I am a member of many 12 step [skiing] programs.
I'm [skiing] good enough. I'm [skiing] smart enough. And doggone it, people like me [skiing].
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Post by JimRatliff on Feb 24, 2014 16:42:56 GMT -7
LOL. Great video. I'm skiing good enough (but I can still get better), I'm skiing smart enough (but I can take the learning to greater depth), and doggone it people like me (or at least some of them part of the time). At least I like myself (almost all of the time).
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Post by meput on Feb 24, 2014 20:13:47 GMT -7
Wow, didn't expect this thread to wander into skier self esteem and how do we derive "fun" from our skiing. But so be it. Did I have fun attending my PMTS camp? Absolutely! I love to ski. I enjoy learning and improving my ability to ski. I enjoy having technical focus as I ski. Without focus, my skiing can get sloppy and bad things can happen. My PMTS camp was a learning experience and it has added to my technical understanding of how I desire to ski. My camp experience has added to my sense of skiing "fun". I had a great time such that I am already thinking about attending another PMTS camp. Did my attending the Blue/Dark Blue improve my skiing self esteem? Yes and no. Just being placed in HH's group was an honor and validation that I am doing something right with my skiing. But skiing with HH points out just how much room I have for improvement. Watching all of the instructors ski gives me inspiration to improve. Is there a problem with aspiring to ski like a PMTS instructor? I don't think so because I like the way they ski. Are all PMTS skiers self deprecating? I don't think so. I can be self deprecating at times and others not so much. When friends who have not skied with me inquire about my ability, I answer that I am a good skier, nothing more. Can I ski to fit HighAngle's definition of a good skier? Yes. Do I consider myself an expert skier? No. But that is where I derive fun in my quest to improve my ability to ski. Do I like the way that I ski? Yes, but I will like it even more as my ability improves. And, I will have great "fun" while I work on improving .
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Post by superbman on Feb 25, 2014 8:56:02 GMT -7
Guys,
Honestly, I am glad that this has taken a different direction as the posts lately have been a little too insular and limiting (and alienating) across the forum. Let me put a few things on the table here so we know where I'm coming from and what I am saying.
1. Contrary to my image here, I think PMTS is THE way to learn to ski, and anyone can get more insight to what ails them (and the cure) by watching any of Harald's short Youtube videos than three weeks of PSIA lessons. No lie, I share his books and videos (I have everything, including the 3 Essentials DvD's, but the instructors manual, which I'd love to grab in the near future) with anyone I think want to get better. I steer everyone, from my very talented, old-school 72 year-old Patrol director to young newbies to his videos and methods as the best way to improve. OK, I am a fan of Clendinnen, too (my dream ski lesson vacation would be 3 day boot camp with HH and than a two day gold plan with JC…so sue me).
2. I totally get the immersing yourself in clinics, coaching and the endless pursuit of getting better. I am an educated man who makes his living in the red brick tower (a step down from Ivory, I suppose) and part of the great attraction of skiing is the opportunities to think, analyze, pursue and perfect technique through effort and education. It's like tennis, a sport that lasts a lifetime, where perfect is a fleeting ideal we dream to touch, but that pursuit is as enjoyable as the imagined reality. I truly understand why an already talented ex-junior, college club racer like Greg (Heluva) sought out PMTS and works hard on getting always better, or why the game recreationalists (like myself, or ToddW or most of us here) look to high level models and invest time, money, mental and physical effort into improvement in a sport that gives us no money, but delivers years of kinesthetic and poetic joy. And, pursuant to the new rules of moderation, you should all know, I believe all of you are in fact good skiers(though at widely different levels), who understand technique and get the grand sport of sliding on snow.
3. My question is a cultural one, or maybe a personal one. At what point do you let go of that 'inner-coach' carping in your ear? At what point (bringing up an older thread where I read this and it struck a sour note with me) does Someone shouting out to you, while you are skiing powdery glades at Steamboat(!!), that you are Countering wrong, become a detraction, a step away from why you ski? Or is that always there? Does everyone who hits a bunch of camps get that permanent mindset?
I guess what throws me off, is that constant reinforcing of 'not good enough' or a sort of insecurity that follows posting about ones technique. I can accept that HH, Hirscher, Reilly, or Even Heluva ski better than I, and even be in the process of modeling my skiing on their examples, without falling into insecure, self-deprecation. Nor do I see the need for false modesty, believe it or not, I know how I ski, and it's solid. It can, has and will continue to get better every year, too.
But like I said, after years of practice, nearly a ten pack of camp clinics, top flight gear choices and fittings, it's time to at least get comfortable with the idea you've gotten somewhere…and if you haven't, well then, Houston, we have a problem.
I'm probably conflating a number of cultural trends that creep into the conversations on this forum and on PMTS,
I think Meput's last paragraphs in the above post is perfect. It's where I'd imagine most here should view themselves as skiers (myself included). For me, actually embracing the ethos alluded to in Meput's post has enabled me to tell the inner coach to shut up when appropriate (something that I only got to a season or so ago). That doesn't mean I don't aspire, but, if you will excuse the neo-hippie sensibility, I am able to ski in the moment and enjoy it as it is at that moment. No false modesty or self-deprecation necessary.
Sure, Others are better, and I'd like to move my skiing to be more like theirs and actually I spend time training to do so, but, I can let go, too: On the Forums and in the trees.
Honestly, how many others here do? Why or Why not? And I mean that as an open ended point of discussion. When does the inner clinician go on coffee break and the inner ski buddy with an inner six pack and a plate of wings come out?
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Post by JimRatliff on Feb 25, 2014 9:42:47 GMT -7
Two things. 1. Cultural. Lynn's husband was a swim coach, one of his tri-athlete friends served as the bike coach at the triathlon camps he/they ran. They had the same core group sending "camp"year after year. So she comes from a cultural environment where "getting coached up" is just the way athletic hobbies are.
I was a pretty good high basketball and baseball player. Obviously we had coaches, but I feel I got good primarily due to the time I spent playing the game against other good players off-season
The trade-off between coaching and just skiing is harder for me than her.
For people that come from a certain background, getting regular coaching or training sessions probably just feels natural.
2. Letting go. Although we talk about doing drills a lot on the forum, it is not something that gets in the way of skiing (especially if it's not a groomed snow day). I am not at the point where I can just ski. I can walk without thinking much about it. I can "just ride" my road bike and my cadence will be between 78 and 86 without thinking much about it. I'm not at that point in my skiing; to get there I need to regularly monitor myself, just as I used to monitor my cadence on the bike until it became second nature.
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